James: Okay, we’ll open it up to the group for questions about our approach.

Participant A: I am now reading your book in Ukrainian. And now I am interested in the chain of why you asked this question and then this question, how it was in this case – how the sequence of questions works.

Penny: Every question is a result of the client’s last answer. We are modelling the client’s words, the structure of their thinking and this influences the next question we ask.

James: At the beginning we’re seeking for the client to state a desired outcome. So that we have a contract of where we are heading. In this case, there wasn’t a desired outcome that was forthcoming for quite a while.

And also, extra factors kept coming in to make the situation more and more complicated. And then, when we’re given a desired outcome [at row 14C], we look for the place within the structure where something needs to shift.

We’ve worked with a lot of people around insomnia. It seems to us falling to sleep is a natural phenomena and so if the person is not falling asleep something must be happening (in the words of this client) to “stop” them falling asleep. And we wonder what happens at the moment when the natural process is interrupted? This is likely to be a very important place and that’s why we asked quite a lot of questions about what the client was experiencing at those moments.

We’re not trying to hypothesise, nor are we trying to find a solution. We’re trying to facilitate the client to model their own structures, their own way of being in the world. And to find out which pieces are most important [to their process of change].

Participant B: And one more thing that I noticed during our session that from time to time, the client was doing this movement, back and forth, back and forth, and if I would be therapist, I would ask what does it mean?

Participant C: When the client started to talk about her problem with insomnia, her physical state became worse with a headache. And she says it did because that her coping strategy is to block off body sensations usually.

Penny: I think it was important in this piece of work when James asked “what happened just before the process of falling asleep stops?”

The client said “something distracts me.” And he asked: “And what would you like to have happen in that moment that something stops you.”

The client said “I would like other things not to distract.” And a key question we asked was : “And can other things not distract you?”

And the client got quiet. She went inside to think. And then she said “I think it is not possible things would not distract me.”. She’s been telling herself all this time that she can’t sleep because things distract her, now she says it’s not possible for things not to distract her.

James said: “And when it’s not possible, what would you like to have happen when they do distract you while you’re falling asleep?”

The client went quiet again. And she said: “Now I’m thinking the distractions are not a problem. My problem is that I cannot go to bed in time.” And she started describing what she needed to do.

I’m repeating all this because it’s important to get a sense of how the process works.

Also, to come back to what [participant A] was asking about the sequence of questions. We follow the logic of the clients metaphor landscape. Those questions are always relating to the client’s information, the client’s logic, their answers, that’s what we’re responding to – the reality of her life. Those questions were all about the reality of her life as she knows it to be.

We are not trying to change the reality of a person’s life. We’re facilitating them to find new perspectives, new choices, have other ways of being in the world while they have that reality

Participant D: I have an insight. I was thinking during this work, what are we doing? What do we create? We create a space for the client to become more aware about how his system functions – right here right now, without any other [input].

Penny: And to learn from that. For the client to learn from themselves.

Participant E: Ah yes, the client learns how to use his or her own system.

James: Exactly. Because the one thing that they can’t get out of is themselves. The way nature works is it evolves from what it has. We can only change from where we are. And a lot of people have not spent much time understanding, as you say, how their system works. And secondly, how do we prevent ourselves from understanding? How we, as the client said, distract ourself from life, from reality, from our feelings; how we stop thinking about things; how we do all these things other than go ‘this is the reality of my life, right now’.

Participant F: I just have an observation. I noticed a lot of pauses between questions, pauses and silence. And I like it because for me, these pauses give the clients a chance to go deep into himself or herself and to have this inner process.

Penny: Yes. And if the client is processing quickly, and something is happening in their metaphor, say something’s running or moving quickly, then those questions might come a little faster. The pace of our question is in relation to the client’s metaphor

Participant G: Sometimes I work with clients, and we are going to the direction to the desired outcome. And we are developing metaphors. And in some point, something happens, like in our session today that the client suddenly has a headache or some other physical symptoms. In this situations I pay attention to these symptoms. I leave the desired outcome and begin to pay attention and ask questions about these symptoms. Do I understand it right now that even if client has symptoms, physical symptoms, we continue to move towards a desired outcome, not developing this new symptoms, is that right?

James: No, it’s a choice. If you feel that it’s important for the client to develop the symptoms, then facilitate them to develop the symptoms.

In this case, we chose not to, but it’s not a rule. You have to make a decision about what’s the most valuable for the client, given their desired outcome.. And if you’re not sure, then ask the client. So if they say they’re having a headache, you could ask: And when you’re having a headache, what would you like to have happen next? We give them the choice.

What we don’t want to do is encourage the symptoms to get worse through our questions. If they’re in terrible pain, that they’re not going to be very creative and resourceful. If they’re suffering we want to be careful that our questions don’t make it worse for the client.

The client I would like to add, when I had a headache and the not-pleasant physical state, we were talking a lot about how you fall asleep, and what is going on before this is a pleasant process. And the more we were talking about this falling asleep topic, the better and then more resourceful I felt myself so this was very helpful because the resourceful topic about falling asleep makes me feel better.

James: If there’s someone who is new to the group that hasn’t spoken I’d be interested to hear what you learned from observing the demonstration.

Participant H: For me very useful to hear that we work with therapeutic contract. We don’t touch topics that clients haven’t requested.

James: In the demonstration the client started talking about her childhood. That wasn’t part of what she asked for. So we didn’t go there. And the client talked about her relationship with her daughter who’s very ill, and that didn’t seem to be part of her desired outcome, so we didn’t go there either. If the client had indicated that it was important to go into those experiences to achieve their desired outcome, then we would have done so, but we don’t take the decision on behalf of the client.

Participant I: I understand English, I don’t speak, but I understand. And when I was observing how you work in English, I had an impression that in English, clean language questions sound more natural than in Ukrainian, right? In Ukrainian it’s a bit of a different story because in Ukrainian it’s like they create a different space. Whereas in English, it sounds very natural. And for me, it was important because it helps me to better understand the method.

Penny: I wonder if part of that is that is because we’re repeating back the client’s words exactly and naturally incorporate them into our questions.

James: It’s an interesting observation. Maybe you can see if there are other ways to ask these questions. Because the important thing is not the translation of the question the important thing is the translation of the function of the question – what they invite the client to do with their mind and body.

And we’ve been doing the work for 25 years so maybe that helps!

Participant J: What is very valuable for me when I see how you work, I begin to think that the most important thing is not just to formulate the questions exactly word by word. The most important is to develop a landscape, to develop metaphors and help the client to follow his self-modelling process.

Penny: Absolutely!

Participant K: After a second module of of symbolic modelling [with Anna S]. I had a conversation with a friend and he was complaining about something and complaining and complaining and I just automatically asked him, ‘What do you would like to have happen?’ And he said that what he would like to have happen was so and so. I then asked him and when so and so happens, what happens then? And he said like, I never was thinking about that. And I then I thought of you two!

Penny: Thank you. Lovely to meet the new people.