The following transcript is our eighteenth published demonstration of Clean Language and Symbolic Modelling with a client from a group Ukrainian psychologists and psychotherapists.
The group use Clean approaches to support themselves and their clients during the ongoing trauma of war. The sessions have evolved over the past four years into a mixture of training, supervision of client cases and live facilitation of participants.
One of the group participants volunteered to be the client for this session.
The demonstration including translation lasted 1 hour. The session has a number of interesting features. It illustrates how we:
- Worked with a client who had potentially dangerous physical symptoms.
- Made varied use of the ‘And can …?’question (six times).
Ask questions in clusters (vectors).
A vector is a number of questions which together head in a process direction. Vectors connect the specifics of individual Clean Language questions with the generic phases of the Symbolic Modelling the process.
At the end you’ll find:
- A debrief of the session with a few questions and answers.
- A summary of the three ways we utilised the ‘And can …?’ question.
- A list of the vectors (lines of questioning) involved in this session.
Key:
C = Client, F = Facilitator (Penny and James).
Facilitator-introduced words are highlighted in bold to make it easier to see the format of our Clean Language questions.
Translation by Anna Stativka.
Transcripts of other demonstrations with this group are available at:
List of transcripts with Ukrainian psychologists
The session
| Transcript |
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0C | My topic is quite complicated. I worked with this topic for many, many, many times, and this topic is about my psychosomatic reactions that I don’t understand why they happen, and I would like to work with you, because you’re experienced therapists, I have some psychosomatic reactions that influence my, my body, like some symptoms physically. |
|
1F | And what would you like to have happen from this session? | Given this “topic is complicated” we invite the client to limit the scope of her desire for “this session”. |
2C | What I would like to have happen. I would like a miracle to happen, and all my psychosomatic symptoms disappear. | We accept this as genuine desire. |
3F | [Pause] And is there anything else that you’d like to have happen in this session? | Rather than immediately start to develop their statement we offer the client a chance to have a second thought. |
4C | My first answer about a miracle, it was an honest answer. But to be realistic, what I would like to have happen? My symptoms, they appeared six years ago when my Mom died, and during these six years, I tried to do a lot of psychotherapy and analysis and self analysis and stuff like that, and I would like to be healthy, no matter of the reason for these symptoms. | Desired Outcome: “I would like to be healthy, no matter of the reason for these symptoms.” |
5F | To be healthy, no matter the reason for the symptoms. And you’ve done a lot of therapy about these symptoms. And so how come you still have them after all this therapy? | We do not want to repeat what the client has tried before. |
6C | Maybe I don’t see something. | |
7F | Maybe. And is there anything else? | We continue to cautiously search for a direction for the session. |
8C | Psychotherapy works because before psychotherapy these symptoms were very, you know, very big, very large. And after some therapy with my colleagues, these symptoms have become less and less, smaller and smaller. And sometimes they are just not visible. So that’s why I know that therapy works, | Good to know “these symptoms have become less and less”. |
9F | And so the symptoms have become less and less, and you’d like to be healthy, no matter about the symptoms. And so, how do you know when you’re healthy? | Invites the client to consider the signs that will let her know she is “healthy”. |
10C | How I know? I have enough energy, I have enough desires to do something, and I have an opportunity to do this, so I have enough endurance for doing something. | |
11F | Energy, desire and endurance. Anything else about how you know when you are healthy? | Again inviting the client to add to her first answer. |
12C | When I have inner balance and I have energy to live. | A different class of answer since it involves: (a) an “inner” balance, and (b) the energy “to live”. |
13F | And you have inner balance and you have energy to live. And when you have inner balance, where is that inner balance? | Start vector: For the client to locate and develop the form (embody) the desired experience. |
14C | There [touches chest]. | |
15F | There. And whereabouts there? | |
16C | It’s under my chest, and in the centre. | |
17F | Under my chest in the centre. When inner balance is under your chest and in the centre, what’s happening there when you have inner balance? | |
18C | I have some pleasant tension in this area, as energy. | |
19F | Some pleasant tension And is there anything else about that pleasant tension? | |
20C | It’s like an engine or some inner source that has some energy inside. And this energy then dissolves around all my body and gives me opportunity to do something; to live, and to do, do something. | |
21F | And it’s like an engine or an inner source with energy. And when it’s like an engine, what kind of engine is that? | |
22C | I don’t want to compare it with anything else. It’s more like a source, it like a source of clear water that comes from the ground. | The vector has achieved its purpose: The metaphor has three symbols, “a source”, “clear water”, and “the ground”. |
23F | And a source of clear water that comes from the ground. And when a source of clear water that comes from the ground, where is that ground and that source of clear water? | Start vector: For the client to develop the landscape of the metaphor. |
24C | The first thought when you asked me about it, I imagine some stone, and it is very definite place that was earlier in my life. It was a real source of energy for me. But later this place was polluted by radiation because it’s near Chernobyl, and now I am not sure that this source and this place is clear. | Client switches from an internal perception to a real place. |
25F | And what came to mind was a stone. And what kind of stone is the stone of that source of the clear water? | Invite client to consider the nature of this presumably symbolic “stone”. |
26C | It’s a dark grey. [Long pause.] And now I see another source. And this other source is in the western parts of Ukraine. It’s another place. And there is no stone, it’s like – only like clay, Like clay-like ground. | Client’s again switches to another real place. |
27F | And from that clay. And what kind of water comes from a clay like that? | Inviting client to attend to another symbol, “water”. |
28C | This water is cool, it’s tasty, and it comes from the ground as a small fountain. And then there is a kind of a basin. It looks like a small fountain, and then it goes to the small basin, and then it goes to the river. | The client also describes the third symbol of the metaphor, the “source”, as a “small fountain” |
29F | Anything else about that small fountain that’s the source of that water? | |
30C | It’s very, very clear water, and now I’m thinking that it would be a good idea to make a small fence, like a border, around this source against some animals who live in this area. These animals, like [? inaudible] or some other animals, they can drink from this water. Not from the source, but from another place, when it’s already come from the source and the water is in the basin or somewhere near the river. But the source needs to have a fence around it. | The client specifies “a need” for another symbol “a small fence”. |
| 31F | A fence. A small fence. Anything else about the small fence around that fountain? | |
| 32C | There is a river near the source. And I would take stones from this river, because there are a lot of stones there, and put these stones around the source in order to protect it, in order for it not to be destroyed, and from animals who would like to drink this water. [Pause] I have done already a small pond where the water comes from this source to this pond, and animals can drink from this pond – not from the source, but from the pond, and the source will be protected. | “I have done already” indicates the client is making changes (using her agency). |
| 33F | So, can you put those stones from that river around that source? | Given the client can create a “pond” maybe she can create a “border” of “stones” – let’s find out. |
| 34C | Yes. | The metaphor landscape seems sufficiently developed (vector started at 23F) and changes are happening … |
| 35F | And so when those stones are around that source and it is protected, what happens under your chest, in the centre, there [points to client’s chest area]? | … so we switch vector to start to mature changes by inviting the client to notice any effects in her body. |
| 36C | Yes, it becomes wider. It was a small ball, and now it becomes wider, bigger. | The effects are ‘spreading’. |
| 37F | And as it becomes bigger, then what happens? | Continue maturing the effects by inviting time to move forward. |
| 38C | What happens then? I would like to take care of myself, because I have an autoimmune disease, when my immune system attacks this gland that is in my throat. My immune system attacks my thyroid gland, and I’m thinking that maybe there is some protective layer that has to protect my thyroid gland. And this protective layer is destroyed. That’s why my immune system attacks my thyroid and I maybe need to have this protective layer back. | New desired Outcome “I would like to take care of myself”. A compromised thyroid is a potentially dangerous medical condition. |
| 39F | A protective layer around your thyroid gland. Let me just check. Have you talked to a medical doctor about this condition? | Since we are not doctors we want to check the client has received medical advice. |
| 40C | Yes | |
| 41F | Okay, good. So can you get medical advice? | And double check this is still available to her given the ongoing war. |
| 42C | Yeah. Unfortunately, medical recommendations are only about symptomatic treatment. You just need to use some hormones from outside. They cannot recommend anything else. They can only do symptomatic treatment by hormones from outside. | |
| 43F | Okay, and what you know is you would like a protective layer around your thyroid – you’d like it back. | We return attention to what we are qualified to work with – the client’s metaphors and her latest desired Outcome (38C) |
| 44C | I have a metaphor. After I had the metaphor of protecting my source with the stones, I have the same metaphor in the same way to protect my thyroid gland – like I protected this source. It’s the same process. | |
| 45F | So anything else about that layer, that protective layer around your thyroid? | |
| 46C | I have several ideas now. Several associations, so it can be like jellyfish, it can be like some sea weed, or like gelatine – something like that. | |
| 47F | Jellyfish, seaweed, or gelatine. Anything else about a layer like that? | |
48C | Now I think that all these three ideas, like jellyfish or seaweed or gelatine are not good because they are instant, they can be dissolved by water. And I need something that can be really protective, that can be strong and at the same time flexible. | |
49F | Strong but flexible. | [Should have said “and”] |
50C | Yes, and not, not instant. Cannot be dissolved in water. | |
51F | And when it’s strong and flexible and cannot be dissolved in water, that’s like what? | Inviting the client to find a metaphor using the attributes of the experience. |
52C | Now I see it as something biological, like some web, like we have in our body around our organs. It’s like a very thin web or film. It’s a biological film that covers our organs, | |
53F | A web. Like a thin web, a film that covers biological organs. And is there anything else about that thin web? | |
54C | And now I see this film, and it can really cover this place where it was damaged around my thyroid gland. So it can repair and replace what was damaged. | |
55F | So it can protect and repair. | |
56C | Yes it can repair. For example, when you have some wound on your body, on your hand, for example. Yes, this wound can repair because of this biological film that is forming. | The client has established a metaphor for her latest desired Outcome. |
57F | And so as this biological film forms around the thyroid and can repair the damage, then … what …happens? | We continue by inviting the client to consider the effects of her desired Outcome happening. |
58C | I have a lot of time [to think] because of the translation, and during the translation I have a lot of metaphors. And now I think that this film, it’s now not like film, but like fabric, or cloth. And this fabric is very old, and it’s so old that you cannot repair it. You just need to put it out and to find new cloth and put it in its place. New cloth, new fabric. Because the old one is too old. You begin to repair it and it begins to dissolve under your hands. [Pause] And now I’m thinking that my metaphor about Chernobyl was not accidental. Because now I’m thinking that after the Chernobyl catastrophe people who tried to walk in this Chernobyl zone had a lot of burns on their skin. Then Ukrainian scientists created artificial skin, and I know this is real, because I had an example of this artificial skin. I, I have touched it with my own hands, so I know that it’s real stuff. And when people after Chernobyl had very bad burns on their skin, they took this artificial skin – it looks like a film, a transparent film – and they put it on their burns and it helped their skin to form it’s own biological film under the artificial skin. And somehow this water that I have in the source, in my chest – or in this place in West of Ukraine – it helps to repair this film. | The various symbols in the client’s metaphor landscape are interacting with each other. |
59F | So this water helps to repair the film. And is there anything else about how this water helps to repair that film? | Switch vector: The function of “film” is to “repair”, does the client know how this can happen? |
60C | How water helps? You have to take this artificial skin and put it into the water. And when you put it into this water, it becomes softer. And then after it becomes softer, you can put it around the thyroid gland and let it be here, and to put the thyroid gland inside this water to create a pond in the area of the thyroid, and let the thyroid be inside this water, this pond. | |
61F | Let that thyroid gland be inside that water, and that pond. And can that thyroid gland be inside that water and that pond? | The client knows how, but can it actually happen? |
62C | What I feel now – now it’s like the my body is full of this water. The feeling inside my body that I am full of this clean water, but this water didn’t reach my thyroid gland yet. | |
63F | Where has it got to then? | |
64C | Yes, it’s now like it’s beginning to fill my body. It’s in my hands already in my body. It’s not in my head yet. It’s stopped on the level of my shoulders, and it’s not in my legs yet. | |
65F | And so is there anything else that needs to happen for that water to go beyond your shoulders and into your head and into your legs? | The client has not specifically said this is what she wants but 62C and 64C strongly imply it. |
66C | It’s like high tide in the sea. There begins to be more of it, like high tide. | |
67F | Okay, so it’s happening like a tide, a high tide. And so then what happens, as that tide is high? | |
68C | I would like to lie down inside the water and make myself comfortable. And have only my nose outside of the water. And all the rest of my body will be covered by water. | We wonder: Is the client speaking literally, metaphorically or both? |
69F | And is that something that you can do? | Let’s find out. |
70C | I can imagine it. | |
71F | And you can imagine it. And is it something that you can do and imagine, after this session? | Checking whether the client can do the imagining on her own. If so she can attend to other aspects of her landscape during the session. |
72C | I’m just thinking that I can take a bath at home, and I even know what herb I need to add to this water in my bath. | |
73F | Okay, and so you can do that afterwards in your own home. | |
74C | Maybe not just now, because we have no hot water at home. We have a boiler, yes, but it’s too small for taking a bath. At the same time I can put a bucket on their stove. Yes, there is enough hot water in our boiler for a shower, and not enough for bath! | |
75F | But in the meantime, you can imagine it. | |
76C | Now I am imagining myself in this place where my source is. It’s in nature, and it’s like I’m imagining that I’m lying down in the place where my source is. And it’s like I made a small basin to be able to lie down in the water of this source, | The client is doing it right now. |
| 77F | And as you lie down in that small basin in the place of the source of that water, what happens to your immune system? | Switch vector: Continue maturing by checking if these changes have affected “immune system”. |
| 78C | Now I have a feeling that water is already coming higher and covers my thyroid, and it needs some time to recover this protective film around it. | |
| 79F | And so as that thyroid recovers and gets that protective film around around it, is there anything that needs to happen to an immune system while the film is repairing? | While “some time to recover” is happening, does “immune system” need anything? |
| 80C | My immune system now is surprised because she had a lot of work, and now she sees that some part of my body doesn’t need the protection from her. So she, she is okay, she’s doing her work. She protects and protects and protects myself. And now she’s just surprised that this part of my body doesn’t need protection anymore. It’s surprising, | “Immune system” is a Perceiver symbol since “she is surprised”. |
| 81F | And your immune system is surprised. And is there anything that she would like to have happen, your immune system would like to have happen now? | Therefore “she” will likely have an intention. |
| 82C | My system has too many soldiers, and she can take the soldiers and let them check other systems of my body. Let them check other organs of my body. For example, now my tooth is in pain, so let them take care of my tooth, for example. | |
| 83F | Okay, and as your immune system checks the other parts of your body, and your thyroid is repaired by that film as you are in that water, then what happens to your energy and your desire to do things? | More checking if the changes have affected other aspects of the landscape (“energy/desire” was wanted at 10C). |
| 84C | Now my body is full of this water. Only my head is not full yet, And I can go to work and do something or sleep. | |
85F | And can you take care of yourself? | As desired at C38. |
86C | Yes, now I feel comfortable, and now I would like to drink some water. And after our session, maybe I will do this bath for myself. I’m thinking that maybe it’s possible now. | |
| 87F | Good. And so, where are you now about being healthy? | The client’s original desired Outcome. |
| 88C | I am like looking inside my head, why my head is not full of this water yet. [Puts pillow behind head and leans back.] Now I feel inner balance [stokes forehead], and it’s like self-exploration, and when you explore yourself it’s like a check is going on – that you have something painful here, then painful here, then it’s relaxed, then something begin to relax here, relax here, so it’s like some self check. And everything is fine. Only on my lobe I have some small tension. | |
| 89F | And so as that happens, and that biological process happens, and your body fills with water, and you do that check, is it okay if we leave the session and allow that to continue? | We think the client’s system has plenty to be getting on with so we bring the session to a close. |
| 90C | Yes, of course. I thank you. | |
| 91F | Okay, thank you. And enjoy your bath. |
Debrief
James: One thing you can see from that session, which is common, is how the different symbols and metaphors eventually all come and weave together to form something. They were independent to start with, but they all came together in the end, and that often happens in this work.
It’s really important to recognise that we are not trying to make that happen. It happens spontaneously within the client’s inner world. If it happens, good. If it doesn’t, good as well. We’re not trying to make it happen, but it does happen frequently.
Penny: So let’s open this up. If anyone has a question or a comment that you’d like to make on that demonstration, now’s the time to ask it or say it.
Participant 1: My question is, when we work in this method, how do we know, and what we can do, if a person begins to develop metaphors that are negative and can resemble their traumatic event or something unpleasant for example. What we can do in this case?
James: Okay, we don’t regard any metaphor as positive or negative, because we think all metaphors have a function.
Participant 1 : Yes, yes, I agree. But I’m not talking about negative, I’m talking about metaphors that can, for example, be scaring for the person.
James: There’s an article on our website about working with macabre metaphors. [They don’t just scare the client, they can be scary for the facilitator too!]
Demonstration Client: As for me today, I had a, so to say, macabre metaphor, and it was a metaphor of radiation. And my system started to search for another place where there is no radiation. And this resembles my own life, my real life, because in 1986 after Chernobyl exploded my small child and I had to run away to Western Ukraine.
Participant 2: What if the metaphor of the client about his or her psychosomatic symptoms doesn’t resemble real physiological process from a medical point of view. Do we need to talk to the client about this, that your metaphors are not describing the real physiological physiology process, or we don’t need to do this?
James: When you say the “real” physiological process, what you mean is the doctor’s metaphors. Almost all of the descriptions of medical science about what happens in the body is based on metaphor.
I respect medical science, but my job is to work with the experience of the client [– whatever that is]. The client will know more about their own experience than a doctor ever can.
So I think it’s important to take into account medical advice, which is why we checked that the client was receiving medical advice from a doctor. It’s very important to check that. But given that she [had consulted the medical profession] we can work entirely with the psychological aspect of her life – always remembering that the psychological and the physiological work together. The most researched ‘medication’ of all time, which is regularly proven to have between 30 and 50% effect on most people is … the placebo!
Participant 3: I am newcomer. I am just starting to learn clean language, I am grateful for you, Penny, James, for your work. I’m grateful for [the client], because her topic resonated a lot with me, and I’m grateful for the translation. My question is, during the work several times you asked the client: ‘What can happen?’ or ‘What needs to happen?’ or ‘Can you do this?’. And my question is, why did you ask these questions instead of just developing metaphors?
James: Thank you for the question. First of all, ‘What needs to happen?’ and ‘Can … happen?’ are very different questions.
Penny: For example, the client said that she needed to put stones around the source, the fountain [30C & 32C]. So we were simply asking, ‘Can you?’ [33F], because if she can do it, then we don’t need to do anything else. [However, If she can’t do it, that suggests something else still needs to happen.]
We want to facilitate the client only with where she needs our support. The bits she can do on her own, like go and have a bath – she doesn’t need us and we don’t need to be involved.
And the other question we asked was when the client described how she needed the film around the thyroid, so that it could repair itself [38C & 48C]. Our question was ‘Is there anything else that needs to happen while that film is repairing?’ [79F]. If a process is ongoing and is happening on its own, great. Let’s just leave it be. But if the client needs some extra resources, then we would work with her [to access] those extra resources. So we’re trying to find out – again – does she need extra resources or is it all going to happen automatically?
Participant 3: One more question! When the client said, ‘I would like to lie down in this source with only my nose outside’ – in my imagination. I was thinking ‘Are you asking, the client to really go, in reality, to this place and do this?
James: She can do it in both her mind and body.
Penny: If she can go to the particular place, that’s great. And she can simulate it by doing it in her own bath – that’s good as well. And in this case question the client imagined doing it. If a client can do both, the psychological and the physical, even better.
James: We learned this from David Grove. Sometimes he gave people tasks, or assignments, to do after their session. For example, to go to physical places, or to find a particular place that was [structured] like their inner metaphor.
I had a metaphor when I was working with David about a clearing in a forest, and he said, ‘Go and find a forest with a clearing like that and see what you discover. Walk around it and find out what difference that makes.’ That was the assignment he gave me. So, sometimes we recommend clients physicalise their metaphor.
We’ll see you next month. In the meantime, stay safe and strong.
[Client feedback on the effect of the session to follow.]
Summary of 'And can ...?' questions
NOTE: To remain clean when working in metaphor (as five of the six examples below are), it is vital that the ‘And can …?’ question is only used when the client or a symbol has stated a desire, need or intention for something to happen.
The session demonstrates three uses of the ‘And can [you/symbol] …?’ question:
1. To check on something factual (in this case whether medical support for a potentially dangerous illness is available):
| C38: | … My immune system attacks my thyroid gland … |
| 41F: | So can you get medical advice? |
| 42C: | Yeah … |
2. For the client to consider whether they have the capacity (volition/agency) to enact a desired change in their metaphor landscape:
| 30C: 32C: | … the source needs to have a fence around it … I would take stones from this river … and put these stones around the source in order to protect it |
| 33F: | So can you put those stones from that river around that source? |
| 34C: | Yes. |
——
| 68C: | … I would like to lie down inside the water and make myself comfortable … |
| 69F: | And is that something that you can do? |
| 70C: | I can imagine it. |
| 71F: | And is it something that you can do and imagine, after this session? |
| 72C: | I’m just thinking that I can take a bath at home, and I even know what herb I need to add to this water in my bath. |
—–
| 38C: | I would like to take care of myself … |
| 85F: | And can you take care of yourself? [Note there was 30 minutes between client’s desire and our question.] |
| 85F: | Yes, now I feel comfortable, and now I would like to drink some water. And after our session, maybe I will do this bath for myself. I’m thinking that maybe it’s possible now. |
3. For the client to consider whether a symbol can enact its intention/function:
| 60C: | … and to put the thyroid gland inside this water to create a pond in the area of the thyroid, and let the thyroid be inside this water, this pond. |
| 61F: | And can that thyroid gland be inside that water and that pond? |
| 61F: | What I feel now – now it’s like the my body is full of this water. The feeling inside my body that I am full of this clean water, but this water didn’t reach my thyroid gland yet |
Summary of vectors
Row numbers | Number of questions | Function of vector, to facilitate the client to: |
| 1F-12C | 6 | Identify desired Outcome and direction for the session |
| 13F-22C | 5 | Locate and develop (embody) the form of the desired experience |
| 23F-34C | 6 | Develop landscape of desired metaphor |
| 35F-38C | 2 | Mature changes |
| 39F-42C | 2 | Check client has access to medical advice |
| 43F-56C | 5 | Develop the newly appeared desired Outcome |
| 57F-58C | 1 | Consider effects of desired Outcome |
59F-76C | 7 | Check what the client can do on her own |
| 77F-86C | 5 | Continue maturing the effect of changes on other symbols |
| 87F-90C | 2 | Bring session to a close |
