The following transcript is our seventeenth published demonstration of Clean Language and Symbolic Modelling with a client from a group of Ukrainian psychologists and psychotherapists.
The group is learning to use Clean approaches to support themselves and their clients during the ongoing trauma of war. The sessions have evolved over the past four years into a mixture of training, supervision and live facilitation of participants’ personal development.
Anna Stativka designed the following practice exercise:
Purpose: To develop our own resourceful states and to train us as clinicians to use our Clean Language skills to facilitate clients to do this also.
Part 1: The content for the exercise is to develop a resource metaphor for our resilience over the past year.
Part 2: To identify and develop the source of that resource.
A volunteer facilitator and client agreed to practice the activity in front of the rest of the group and to receive support and guidance from Penny and James.
James facilitated for the last few minutes of the demonstration.
The demonstration and feedback to the facilitator took 23 minutes. All transaction was by Anna Stativka. After the group had practiced the activity in breakout rooms, we had a short question and answer debrief. This is included after the transcript.
The session has a number of interesting features. It illustrates:
- How much can be achieved with just three of the core Clean Language questions (they accounted for 80% of the volunteer-facilitator questions)
- How to sidestep problems when the purpose of an activity is to develop a resource state.
- How Symbolic Modelling using Clean Language can facilitate clients to access fundamental aspects of themselves.
Key:
C = Client, F = Facilitator (Tetyana Shentsova volunteered from the group), J = James
Facilitator introduced words are highlighted in bold to make it easier to see the format of our Clean Language questions.
Transcripts of other demonstrations with this group are available at:
List of transcripts with Ukrainian therapists
Demonstration of the activity
1F | And what helped you to be resilient during this year? |
2C | Hope. |
3F | And this hope, it’s like what? |
4C | It’s distant and light. |
5F | And when this hope is distant and light, is there anything else about hope that is distant and light? |
6C | It’s like paradise. |
7F | And when this hope is like paradise, is there anything else about this paradise? |
8C | It is distant and pleasant and light and warm. |
9F | And when this paradise is warm and distant and light, whereabout is this hope, this paradise? |
10C | Far away. |
11F | And when this paradise is far away, whereabouts is far away? |
12C | It’s there [points]. |
Penny & James comments (added after the session): The facilitator has followed the protocol for the activity perfectly. She has used the core Clean Language questions to facilitate the client to begin to develop his metaphor landscape for ‘resilience’.
However, having hope/paradise “far away” seems problematic. Let’s see how the facilitator responds.
13F | And when this paradise is there, what you would like to have happen? |
14C | I would like to be closer to it. I try to come closer, but it becomes distant every time when I try to come closer. |
15F | And when this paradise is getting more distant when you’re trying to come closer, what you would like to have happen? |
16C | I would like it to stop getting distant. And I would like that my efforts gave some fruits. And I would like that distance between me and paradise will come shorter. |
Penny & James’ comments (added after the session):
It seems the facilitator recognised at 12C that having paradise “far away” was likely a Problem for the client. This was confirmed at 14C when the client’s attempted solution doesn’t work because paradise “becomes distant every time when I try to come closer”.
The facilitator had remembered that the activity was to develop a resource. She therefore expertly uses our Problem-Remedy-Outcome model format (at 13F & 15F) to invite the client to shift out of a Problem frame and into a desired Outcome frame – which he does.
By asking “What would you like to have happen?” the facilitator risks turning the activity from developing a resource into a therapy or coaching session. This is because this question invites the client to consider what they would like to change.
However, given the purpose for the activity, attending to a desired Outcome is preferable to attending to a Problem.
The facilitator continues by following the client’s switch of attention to his desired Outcome for his “efforts” to give “some fruits”.
17F | And when the distance becomes shorter and the paradise become closer, and the efforts give fruits, is there anything else about these fruits that your efforts can give? |
18C | It’s like the feeling of fullness. |
19F | And when there is a feeling of fullness where is this feeling? |
20C | It’s in all my body. |
21F | And when this feeling is in all your body, the feeling of fullness, this feeling is like what? |
22C | It’s warm and relaxing and pleasant, like a warm bath. |
23F | And when there is a feeling of fullness, and this warm and pleasant and relaxing, and it’s like warm bath, is there anything else about hope? |
24C | When it’s like that the hope is around me. |
25F | And when that hope is around you, is there anything else about paradise? |
26C | Then the paradise is reality. |
Penny & James comments (added after the session):
The facilitator continues to use the core Clean Language questions to facilitate the client to develop a metaphor for his desired state.
When clients have experienced enough of an embodied sense of a metaphor for their desired state it becomes a resource for them. It gives their system a clear body-knowing of how they would like to be and this increases the potential for their (other-than-conscious) system to help make that happen.
The facilitator continues with the second half of the activity:
To facilitate the client to identify and develop the source of the Resource.
27F | And when there is this ‘reality is a paradise’, and there is warm and relaxing and pleasant feeling, like a warm bath, where could this feeling come from? |
28C | The source of this feeling is in my memories and in my dreams for the future. |
29F | And when the source is in your memories and in your dreams for future, whereabout are these memories and dreams? |
30C | In my imagination. |
| 31F | And when the source is in your imagination, this source is like what? |
| 32C | The sun. |
| 33F | And when the sun, is there anything else about the sun? |
| 34C | The sun, it’s like a star with a nuclear reaction inside. |
| 35F | And when there is a sun that is the source of this feeling of fullness and warmness, what happens then? |
| 36C | This sun radiates this energy that gives me this feeling of fullness, |
| 37F | And when the sun, this energy that gives this feeling of fullness, what happens then? |
| 38C | Then I feel good. I’m feeling good. . |
| 39F | And when you are feeling good, is there anything else about fruits that your results can give? |
| 40C | Yeah, I have these fruits. I’m heading towards these fruits. |
| 41F | Is this a good place to stop here. |
| 42C | Yes. |
Penny & James feedback (during the session):
James: Tetyana, we’re going to give you a little piece of feedback and then we would like you to continue the exercise for a little longer. Is that okay Tetyana?
Facilitator: Yes.
James: Okay. Tetyana, that was an excellent piece of work. A beautiful example of asking Clean Language questions cleanly. And very skilfully navigating away from a potential Problem when the resource, “paradise”, was a long way away and wouldn’t come closer. You handled that very, very well [using the PRO model].
And here’s a little bit of developmental feedback that will take your work to the next level.
It’s about facilitating the client to really live in their metaphor. So, for example, the client said at one stage, “hope is around me”. ‘Hope is around me’ is an embodied metaphor. It could be developed much more so the client knows and has a direct experience of what it is that’s around him. This would give him the opportunity to deeply embody the resource. Does that make sense?
Facilitator: I think that I just had a lot of attention on the protocol, how to do the process, because I was not familiar with it. At the same time, I’m thinking that “hope” was the main metaphor of the client, and now I see that it would be better if I would develop this metaphor more because maybe there can be a hierarchy of metaphors, and this hope was very important for the client.
James: I agree, and the key words are, “around me”. That’s the key metaphor. This is a clue that “hope” is not an abstract concept, but something the client can experience with their body and their mind. Do you hear the clue there?
Facilitator: Aha, yes, and I see the main goal of our work is to help the person to feel some experience, and really experiencing that will help the client better achieve his goal.
James: So Tityana would you be prepared to spend a few more minutes facilitating the client to develop ‘hope is around me ‘ and to develop that into a much more vivid and lived experience?
Facilitator: Yes, I try.
James: Good, okay, carry on.
43F | And when the hope is around you, this hope is like what |
44C | It’s pleasant. |
45F | And when the hope is around you and it’s pleasant, is there anything else about this hope that is pleasant? |
46C | Yes, it’s pleasant, like sex with the girl that I love. |
| 47F | And when this hope is like sex with a girl that you love and it’s around you, whereabouts is this around you? |
| 48C | It’s like a warm night somewhere in the South. |
| 49F | And when it’s a warm night, and it’s in the South, and this is around you, is there anything else about this night that is warm and around you? |
| 50C | It’s night, it’s dark, and in the distance, some distance, I see the sea, and it’s not hot, it’s not cold, it’s a bit of cool weather, and I hear a sound of cicadas. |
| 51F | And is it a good place to stop here? |
| 52C | Yeah. |
| 53F | And what do you know now? |
| 54C | It’s good to be in paradise. |
Penny & James feedback (during the session):
Facilitator [To Penny & James]: Is this enough?
James: Yes, thank you Tetyana, that was very good, excellent facilitating. You’re doing great. You made good use of the core developing questions to facilitate the client to create a metaphor landscape for the source of his resilience.
James [To the client]: I’d like to ask you a few more questions to demonstrate another aspect of this work, is that okay? [C: Nods]
55J | So when hope is around you and it’s like a dark night, how do you know that hope is around you? | This question invites the client to access his sensory experience for how he knows, “hope is around” him. |
56C | Because I see it around, and I feel it around. | |
57J | And when you see it and feel it, where do you feel it? | I start the ‘Feeling to a Metaphor’ vector devised by David Grove to invite the client to locate and describe the form of his ‘feeling” in metaphorical and embodied terms (continues to row 66C). |
58C | In my body. | |
| 59J | Whereabouts in your body? | |
| 60C | On my skin, I feel it’s a warm feeling on my skin, and I feel a relaxation in my body. | |
| 61J | And on your skin and relaxation in your body, whereabouts in your body do you feel that relaxation? | |
| 62C | In upper part of my body. | |
| 63J | Whereabouts in the upper part? | Multiple ‘Where?’ and ‘Whereabouts?’ questions support the client to identify the precise location of his feeling and keep his attention on his body. |
| 64C | My neck and my shoulders. | |
| 65J | And so when you feel that relaxation in your neck and your shoulders, does that feeling have a size or a shape? | This specialised clean question is contextually clean because feeling usually occupy an area of the body. |
| 66C | Yes it has, it’s like my body, like my shoulders. And it is like, you know, a … [gestures showing a clothes-hanger shape]. | |
| 67J | And is there anything else when it’s like that [replicates the shape] in your shoulders, that feeling of relaxation? | Uses the client’s nonverbal iconic symbol as part of the question. |
| 68C | It tries to remove tension, because I have had tension in this part of my body, and this relaxation tries to remove it and tries to relax my muscles. | |
| 69J | And so when it tries to remove the tension and to relax, then what happens? | Invites client to identify what happens when the feeling enacts its intention (“to relax muscles”). |
70C | It is relaxing. | A change is occurring in real time. |
71J | And then what happens? | Invites the client to experience the effects of the change. |
72C | My mind is relaxing. | More changes. |
73J | And your muscles relax and your mind relaxes, and then what happens? | Continue with the same line of questioning (vector) |
| 74C | My soul is relaxing. | More changes. |
| 75J | Oh, your soul is relaxing. [Pause] Anything else about a soul that relaxes? | Attend to the newly appeared symbol, “soul” and give it time for “relaxing” to happen. |
| 76C | My soul is recovering. | There is no need for me to know what his “soul” is “recovering from”. |
| 77J | So when hope is around you, like a dark night … and you feel it on your skin and in your body, your upper part of your shoulders … and your muscles relax … and your mind relaxes … and your soul is recovering … is there anything else about all that? | We are coming to the end of the time for the demonstration and so I recap the client experience, and invite him to consider it as a whole. |
| 78C | I want to not stop it. | |
| 79J | So is it okay if that feeling continues, but we stop the exercise? | |
| 80C | Yes. Thank you very much. | |
| 81J | Okay, thank you. |
Penny & James comments after the demonstration:
James [To the group]: Did you see that initially the client’s metaphors were all outside his body? This is fine, and we can infer that something must be happening inside his body as well. And when the client attended to what was happening inside his body that was related to hope, he made contact with his “soul”.
Tatyana: Yes, it was incredible to see how it worked with your questions. The client was able to embody the feeling.
James: It’s important to realise that the client accessing metaphors outside and inside the body are equally important. It’s not that one is better than the other. And if you can get both, so much the better.
The question that facilitated the client to transition from the outside to the inside was, ‘And how do you know hope is around you?’ This question invited the client to access his sensory experience for how he knows, “hope is around” him. He discovered that he sees and feels it. It turns out that this feeling was inside his body. The rest of the session was all about his body and what was happening inside.
Penny: There is an activity on our website called ‘From a feeling/state to a metaphor’. It is available in Ukrainian as: Ідентифікація метафори внутрішнього стану.
If you practice this little routine, you will be able to elegantly facilitate a client to their internal experience. And if you practice it, it will improve your facilitation a lot. It can start from a feeling, or it could also be a concept but first practice using this little routine with a feeling to facilitate a client to go inside their body.
And thank you Tetiana and the client for volunteering.
James: I thought Tetiana and I worked very well together!
Okay, now everyone else can have a go at the practice exercise for 15 minutes each way. 30 minutes in total. And then we have a little time afterwards to debrief the activity.
Activity in breakout rooms
Debrief after the practice exercise
Penny: Okay, we’re all back. So, how did it go? Any questions about the process?
Participant 1: My question is, maybe you have some recommendation how not to push the client into an unresourceful direction. Because, for example, when we ask the client ‘What you would like to have happen?’, sometimes it can remind a person about some losses or some things that are not possible because of the situation. Because sometimes we don’t know the full history of the client, maybe a client has some painful losses. So how can we ask questions that will not send the client in to unresourceful stuff?
Penny: There is a model that James and I developed called the Problem-Remedy-Outcome model where you can listen to what the client says, and you can determine whether they are describing a desired Outcome or whether it is a Problem. Also in that model, a Remedy is a mixture of problem and outcome. Our PRO model tells you how you can respond to Problems to keep the client outcome focused.
[There was a good example of the PRO model being used in the demonstration between 13F and 16C.]
Participant 1: What can we do if, for example, a client says, ‘I lost my house’, and we ask ‘What I would like to have happen?’ And they answer, ‘I want to my house to back’ and this is not possible. This can push clients into a very unresourceful state. Then what?
Penny: Well, if a client says, ‘I lost my house and I want it back’, then you can say, ‘And can you get your house back?’. This will establish whether the client thinks it’s possible, or whether they say, ‘no’. Then you can ask, ‘What would you like to have happen when you want it back and you can’t have it back?’.
Does that make sense to you?
Participant 1: Yes, I agree. And in the same time, in such situations, a person can have a very strong emotional reaction, like tears, like stuff, something like very emotional. And because this is very painful topic the person was not ready to talk about it. So what we can we do in this situation? I understand that we can stabilise the person with some other techniques, or just give the person time to calm down. Is it okay?
James: Most emotions come along, they rise up to a peak, and then they fade. So, as you say, if you give the person time, they will normally come down from an emotional peak (often without any need for any technique). Then when they are on the downside of the emotion you can start asking them some more questions. Of course, if they say they don’t want to talk about it, then you will need to find something else that they would like to talk about.
It depends how qualified and experienced you are working with difficult material. If they are experienced they can facilitate the client to work with the difficult reality of their life. But if a therapist is not that experienced they need to have ways to redirect a client’s attention to more resourceful material.
It’s a big subject. And there are some transcripts of demonstrations we’ve done that do address this kind of example. For example the client who said:
“I want to tear apart with my teeth all these abusers who who kill our people.” (Row 14C, Знайти слова в спіральній галактиці (English translation: Finding Words in a Spiral Galaxy.)
Clearly this desired Outcome cannot happen, and so we responded by (a) acknowledging the desire to “tear apart”, and (b) then asking a question related to the client’s original desired Outcome, how to find the words to tell the child that his father has been killed.
See also our article about working with ‘dark’ and difficult material: Жахливі метафори (English translation: Macabre Metaphors).
Penny: Is that okay if we leave this topic for the time being?
Participant 1: Yes, thank you very much.
Participant 2: My question is about the exercise that we are doing today. We have a resource and then you talk about going for the source of resource, what are we doing this for?
Penny: Usually the source of the resource is ‘bigger’, ‘stronger’ and more influential than the resource itself.
James: For example, in the demonstration that you just saw, one of the resources was like “warmth” and that came from the sun, and the sun had the “nuclear” energy, which is likely to be more powerful resource than the warmth itself.
And interestingly, when you facilitate the client to develop their resources and the source of their resources into embodied metaphors, you often don’t have to do anything else. These will have an effect on the rest of the system. And your job is to facilitate the client to find out what effects they have. Does that make sense?
Participant 2: Yes, yes, yes, I got it thank you.
Penny: We look forward to seeing those of you can who join us next month.
