transcript template #2

June 2026

The following transcript is our eighteenth published demonstration of Clean Language and Symbolic Modelling with a client from a group Ukrainian psychologists and psychotherapists.

The group want to use Clean approaches to support themselves and their clients during the ongoing trauma of war. The sessions have evolved over the past four years into a mixture of training, supervision of client cases and live facilitation of participants.

One of the group participants volunteered to as the client.

The demonstration including translation and feedback to the facilitator lasted 1 hour. It is followed by a few questions and answers.

The session has a number of interesting features. It illustrates how we :

Key:

C = Client, F = Facilitator (Penny and James).

Facilitator introduced words are highlighted in bold to make it easier to see the format of our Clean Language questions.

Translation by Anna Stativka.

Transcripts of other demonstrations with this group are available at:

List of transcripts with Ukrainian psychologists

The session

	Transcript
	My topic is quite complicated. I worked with this topic for many, many, many times, and this topic is about my psychosomatic reactions that I don’t understand why they happen, and I would like to work with you, because you’re experienced therapists, I have some psychosomatic reactions that influence my, my body, like some symptoms physically.
1F	And what would you like to have happen from this session?
2C	What I would like to have happen. I would like a miracle to happen, and all my psychosomatic symptoms disappear.
3F	[Pause] And is there anything else that you’d like to have happen in this session?
4C	My first answer about a miracle, it was honest answer. But to be realistic, what I would like to have happen, my symptoms, they appeared six years ago when my Mom died, and during these six years, I tried to do a lot of psychotherapy and analysis and self analysis and stuff like that, and I would like to be healthy, no matter of the reason for these symptoms.
5F	To be healthy, no matter the reason for the symptoms. And you’ve done a lot of therapy about these symptoms. And so how come you still have them after all this therapy?
6C	Maybe I don’t see something.
7F	Maybe. And is there anything else?
8C	Psychotherapy works because before psychotherapy these symptoms were very, you know, very big, very large. And after some therapy with my colleagues, these symptoms have become less and less, smaller and smaller. And sometimes they are just not visible. So that’s why I know that therapy works,
9F	And so the symptoms have become less and less, and you’d like to be healthy, no matter about the symptoms. And so, how do you know when you’re healthy?
10C	How I know. I have enough energy, I have enough desires to do something, and I have an opportunity to do this, so I have enough endurance for doing something.
11F	Energy, desire and endurance. Anything else about how you know when you are healthy?
12C	When I have inner balance and I have energy to live.
13F	And you have inner balance and you have energy to live. And when you have inner balance, where is that inner balance?
14C	There [points to chest].
15F	There. And whereabouts there?
16C	It’s under my chest, and in the centre.
17F	Under my chest in the centre. When inner balance is under your chest and in the centre, what’s happening there when you have inner balance?
18C	I have some pleasant tension in this area, as energy.
19F	Some pleasant tension And is there anything else about that pleasant tension?
20C	It’s like an engine or some inner source that has some energy inside. And this energy then dissolves around all my body and gives me opportunity to do something; to live, and to do do something.
21F	And it’s like an engine or an inner source with energy. And when it’s like an engine, what kind of engine is that?
22C	I don’t want to compare it with anything else. It’s more like a source, it like a source of clear water that comes from the ground.
23F	And a source of clear water that comes from the ground. And when a source of clear water that comes from the ground, where is that ground and that source of clear water?
24C	The first thought when you asked me about it, I imagine some stone, and it is very definite place that was earlier in my life. It was a really source of energy for me. But later this place was polluted by radiation because it’s near Chernobyl, and now I am not sure that this source and this place is clear.
25F	And what came to mind was a stone. And what kind of stone is the stone of that source of the clear water?
26C	It’s a dark grey. [Long pause.] And now I see another source. And this other source is in the western parts of Ukraine. It’s another place. And there is no stone, it’s like – only like clay, Like clay-like ground.
27F	And from that clay. And what kind of water comes from a clay like that?
28C	This water is cool, it’s tasty, and it comes from the ground as a small fountain. And then there is a kind of a basin. It looks like a small fountain, and then it goes to the small basin, and then it goes to the river.
29F	Anything else about that small fountain that’s the source of that water?
30C	It’s very, very clear water, and now I’m thinking that it would be a good idea to make a small fence, like a border, around this source against some animals who live in this area. These animals, like [?] or some other animals, they can drink from this water. Not from the source, but from another place, when it’s already come from the source. And the water is in the basin or somewhere near the river. But the source needs to have a fence around it.
31F	A fence. A small fence. Anything else about the small fence around that fountain?
32C	There is a river near the source. And I would take stones from this river, because there are a lot of stones there, and put these stones around the source in order to protect it, in order for it not to be destroyed, and for animals who would like to drink, this water. I have done already a small pond where the water comes from this source to this pond, and animals can drink from this pond – not from the source, but from the pond, and the source will be protected.
33F	So, can you put those stones from that river around that source?
34C	Yes.
35F	And so when those stones are around that source and it is protected, what happens under your chest, in the centre, there?
36C	Yes, it becomes wider. It was a small ball, and now it becomes wider, bigger.
37F	And as it becomes bigger, then what happens?
38C	What happens then? I would like to take care of myself, because I have an autoimmune disease, when my immune system attacks this gland that is in my throat. My immune system attacks my thyroid gland, and I’m thinking that maybe there is some protective layer that has to protect my thyroid gland. And this protective layer is destroyed. That’s why my immune system attacks my thyroid and. I maybe need to have this protective layer back.
39F	A protective layer around your thyroid gland. Let me just check. Have you talked to a medical doctor about this condition?
40C	Yes
41F	Okay, good. So you can get medical advice?
42C	Yeah. Unfortunately, medical recommendations are only about symptomatic treatment. You just need to use some hormones from outside. They cannot recommend anything else. They can only do symptomatic treatment by hormones from outside.
43F	Okay, and what you know is you would like a protective layer around your thyroid – you’d like it back.
44C	I have a metaphor. After I had the metaphor of protecting my source with the stones, I have the same metaphor in the same way to protect my thyroid gland – like I protected this source. It’s the same process.
45F	So anything else about that layer, that protective layer around your thyroid?
46C	I have several ideas now. Several associations, so it can be like jellyfish, it can be like some sea weed, or like gelatine – something like that.
47F	Jellyfish, seaweed, or gelatine. Anything else about a layer like that?
48C	Now I think that all these three ideas, like jellyfish or seaweed or gelatine are not good because they are instant, they can be dissolved by water. And I need something that can be really protective, that can be strong, and at the same time, flexible.
49F	Strong but flexible.
50C	Yes, and not, not instant. Cannot be dissolved in water.
51F	And when it’s strong and flexible and cannot be dissolved in water, that’s like what?
52C	Now I see it as something biological, like some web, like we have in our body around our organs. It’s like a very thin web or film. It’s a biological film that covers our organs,
53F	A web. Like a thin web, a film that covers biological organs. And is there anything else about that thin web?
54C	And now I see this film, and it can really cover this place where it was damaged around my thyroid gland. So it can repair and replace what was damaged.
55F	So it can protect and repair.
56C	Yes it can repair. For example, when you have some wound on your body, on your hand, for example, yes, this wound can repair because of this biological film that is forming.
57F	And so as this biological film forms around the thyroid and can repair the damage, then … what …happens?
58C	I have a lot of time [to think] because of the translation, and during the translation I have a lot of metaphors. And now I think that this film, it’s now not like film, but like fabric, or cloth. And this fabric is very old, and it’s so old that you cannot repair it. You just need to put it out and to find new cloth and put it in its place. New cloth, new fabric. Because the old one is too old. You begin to repair it and it begins to dissolve under your hands. [Pause] And now I’m thinking that my metaphor about Chernobyl was not accidental. Because now I’m thinking that after the Chernobyl catastrophe people who tried to walk in this Chernobyl zone had a lot of burns on their skin. Then Ukrainian scientists created artificial skin, and I know this is real, because I had an example of this artificial skin. I, I have touched it with my own hands, so I know that it’s real stuff. And when people after Chernobyl has very bad burns on their skin, they took this artificial skin – it looks like a film, a transparent film – and they put it on their burns and it helped their skin to form it’s own biological film under the artificial skin. And somehow this water that I have in the source, in my chest – or in this place in West of Ukraine – it helps to repair this film.
59F	So this water helps to repair the film. And is there anything else about how this water helps to repair that film?
60C	How water helps? You have to take this artificial skin and put it into the water. And when you put it into this water, it becomes softer. And then after it becomes softer, you can put it around the thyroid gland and let it be here, and to put the thyroid gland inside this water ,to create a pond in the area of the thyroid, and let the thyroid be inside this water. This pond.
61F	Let that thyroid gland be inside that water, and that pond. And can that thyroid gland be inside that water and that pond?
62C	What I feel now, – now it’s like the my body is full of this water. The feeling inside my body that I am full of this clean water, but this water is didn’t reach my thyroid gland yet,
63F	Where has it got to then?
64C	Yes, it’s now like it’s beginning to fill my body. It’s in my hands already in my body. It’s not in my head yet. It’s stopped on the level of my shoulders, and it’s not in my legs yet,
65F	And so is there anything else that needs to happen for that water to go beyond your shoulders and into your head and into your legs?
66C	It’s like high tide in the sea. There begins to be more of it, like high tide
67F	Okay, so it’s happening like a tide, a high tide. And so then what happens, as that tide is high?
68C	I would like to lie down inside the water and make myself comfortable. And have only my nose outside of the water. And all the rest of my body will be covered by water.
69F	And is that something that you can do?
70C	I can imagine it.
71F	And you can imagine it. And is it something that you can do and imagine, after this session?
72C	I’m just thinking that I can take a bath at home, and I even know what herb I need to add to this water in my bath.
73F	Okay, and so you can do that afterwards in your own home.
74C	Maybe not just now, because we have no hot water at home. We have a boiler, yes, but it’s too small for taking a bath. At the same time I can put a bucket on their stove. Yes, there is enough hot water in our boiler for a shower, and not enough for bath!
75F	But in the meantime, you can imagine it.
76C	Now I am imagining myself in this place where my source is. It’s in nature, and it’s like I’m imagining that I’m lying down in the place where my source is. And it’s like I made a small basin to be able to lie down in the water of this source,
77F	And as you lie down in that small basin in the place of the source of that water, what happens to your immune system?
78C	Now I have a feeling that water is already coming higher and covers my thyroid, and it needs some time to recover this protective film around it.
79F	And so as that thyroid recovers and gets that protective film around around it, is there anything that needs to happen to an immune system while the film is repairing?
80C	My immune system now is surprised because she had a lot of work, and now she sees that some part of my body doesn’t need the protection from her. So she, she is okay, she’s doing her work. She protects and protects and protects myself. And now she’s just surprised that this part of my body doesn’t need protection anymore. It’s surprising,
81F	And your immune system is surprised. And is there anything that she would like to have happen, your immune system would like to have happen now?
82C	My system has too much of soldiers, and she can take the soldiers and let them check other systems of my body. Let them check other my organs of my body. For example, now my tooth is in pain, so let them take care of my tooth, for example.
83F	Okay, and as your immune system checks the other parts of your body, and your thyroid is repaired by that film as you are in that water, then what happens to your energy and your desire to do things?
84C	My body is full of this water. Only my head is not full yet, And I can go to work and do something or sleep.
85F	And can you take care of yourself?
86C	Yes, now I feel comfortable, and now I would like to drink some water. And after our session, maybe I will do this bath for myself. I’m thinking that maybe it’s possible now.
87F	Good. And so, where are you now about being healthy?
88C	I am like looking inside my head, why my head is not full of this water yet. Now I feel inner balance, and it’s like self-exploration, and when you explore yourself, it’s like a check is going on – that you have some painful here, then painful here, then it’s relaxed something, then something begin to relax here, relax here, so it’s like some self check. And everything is fine. Only on my lobe I have some small tension.
89F	And so as that happens, and that biological process happens, and your body fills with water, and you do that check, is it okay if we leave the session and allow that to continue?
90C	Yes, of course. I thank you.
91F	Okay, thank you. And enjoy your bath.