The following transcript is our sixteenth published demonstration of Clean Language and Symbolic Modelling with a client from a group Ukrainian psychologists and psychotherapists. The group want to use Clean approaches to support themselves and their clients during the ongoing trauma of war. The sessions have evolved over the past four years into a mixture of training, supervision of client cases and live facilitation of participants.
The demonstration (including translation) lasted for an hour. The session has a number of interesting features. It illustrates how we :
- Worked with multiple dual perceptions.
- Tracked multiple emergent changes
Trusted the wisdom in the client’s system.
There is a debrief of the session following the transcript.
Key:
C = Client, F = Facilitator (Penny Tompkins or James Lawley).
Facilitator introduced words are highlighted in bold to make it easier to see the format of our Clean Language questions.
The client’s responses and our questions were translated by Anna Stativka.
Transcripts of other demonstrations with this group are available at:
List of transcripts with Ukrainian therapists
The session
Row | Transcript |
|
1F | And what would you like to have happen? | |
2C | I have a difficulty. Today I have to write something to some person with whom we have been in negotiation with for a long time about a possible collaboration. My colleagues and I know her because we all work in the same field. My colleagues and I know that this person is kind of pushing. She can make pressure for other colleagues, and usually colleagues begin to avoid her because nobody wants conflict. And for me, I would like to write to this person in a way that clearly shows my boundaries, and at the same time, not to be too tough, because sometimes I know that I can be too tough. | |
3F | To write in a way that shows your boundaries and not to be too tough. And is there anything else about writing in a way that shows your boundaries, and is not too tough? Anything else about that? | |
4C | Yes. On one hand I’m interested in continuing the business relationships with this person. And on the other hand, I understand that this person will not change. So even if something would change for now, globally it will not change the situation. It will not change this person. | |
5F | And when globally, it will not change this person. What would you like to have happen? | |
6C | Maybe I would like to have more easiness about this experiment, to have less expectations about this collaboration – that something has to happen, and take it more easy. That is, if it happens okay, if not that’s okay. | |
7F | And have more easiness about this situation. And what kind of easiness is that easiness when, ‘that’s okay’? | |
8C | Less thoughts. Less thinking about this. Less thoughts in my head about this. More easiness in my head, easiness in the body, and it’s like easiness in a sense that it’s okay. | |
9F | And more easiness in the head, more easiness in the body, and the sense that ‘that’s okay’. And when there’s that sense of ‘that’s okay’, where is that sense? | |
10C | Okay – it’s not okay. It’s a game. It’s a game, okay and it’s not okay, that it’s a game. I would like to have easiness in my head. I would have to have easiness in my body, and to know that it’s a game. | |
11F | It’s a game. So where, whereabouts in your head would you need to know this? | |
12C | It’s a kind of an easiness in my head. And now I’m trying to figure out where is this feeling of the game? It’s like interest. It’s like courage. And it’s like a movement ahead. A movement ahead. | |
13F | A movement ahead. And is there anything else about this movement ahead? | |
14C | Now I can already formulate a metaphor. And this metaphor is the wind, and this wind goes from my chest, in one hand and in the other hand, this wind [Gestures] – it’s like I see it by, by the side. And it’s looks like in some cartoons, like childish cartoons. Sometimes the wind is like the childish face with a smile, and sometimes like a childish face with the tail. And this tail is like a metaphor of wind. So I see this wind like it’s going from my chest and forward [Hand gestures forward from chest] and also from the side, like this childish face with the tail, like in cartoons. | |
15F | And this wind is from the chest, forward. And is there anything else about from the chest, forward, where that wind comes from? | |
16C | Now I see this wind. It’s not like from a cartoon anymore. It’s more realistic. It’s like there is a winter forest behind my back, and there is a lot of snow in this forest, and there are pines in this forest. And there is a lot of snow – piles of snow. | |
17F | And that’s at your back that forest with piles of snow. And the wind that goes from your chest forward, it goes forward to where? | |
18C | And this wind is going forward. It looks like in front of me there is some cloud. It’s like a sky, or fog. And when I see this wind, I see that there is no ground. Like I am in the sky. | |
19F | You’re in the sky and there’s clouds forward, and there was another wind that went across [replicates client’s gesture from 14C]. Is there anything else about the other wind? | |
20C | Now these two winds have come together. And I’m thinking that it’s like a tale, like a fantasy. And I remember that when I was a child, and I was flying by plane, and from the plane I was looking through [the window] to the clouds. I had the fantasy that I would like to come out from the plane and to, like, walk on these clouds. And now this is like one picture. | |
21F | And the two winds have combined. It’s one picture, and there’s no forest of snow behind, and clouds in front. And so when the two have combined, what would you like to have happen right now? | |
22C | Aha. Now I don’t understand how these two pictures combine, because behind me I see absolutely firm ground, and in front of me I’m kind of in the air. And I don’t understand how I come from this ground to this air. How I, how I come here, from the forest. | |
23F | So you don’t understand how you’ve come here. And what’s happening for you right now? | |
24C | Stop, a feeling of an inner stop, yes, yes. | |
25F | Yes, and when there’s a feeling of an inner stop, where is that feeling? | |
26C | I feel it in my head, in my chest, and in the above half of my body. And it’s kind of firm, it doesn’t move, and it’s kind of ice. | |
27F | And that’s in the above part of your body. It’s kind of firm and it doesn’t move, and it’s kind of ice. Is there anything else about that feeling of that inner stop? | |
28C | Yes, this feeling. I simultaneously feel it inside and see it from the side. And when I see this from the side, it’s about firm power. And when I feel it inside, it’s something about doubts, like, I am not sure. | |
29F | And when you see it from the side, which side do you see it from? | |
30C | Aha, I see it forward and right side. | |
| 31F | And from there you see it as power and firm. Anything else about the power of that firm feeling inside? | |
| 32C | Yes, I would like to look at this power with respect. To look at it with grace, and it’s like a deep respect for this power. | |
| 33F | A deep respect like grace. And is there anything else about a power that you look at with deep respect? | |
| 34C | When I look at it, when I give it attention and look longer – the longer I look at it, the more it begins to grow. So when I look at it, it grows. | |
| 35F | And when you look at it the power grows. And as that power grows, then what happens? | |
| 36C | I have like, two feelings. First of these feelings, I know that it’s mine and it belongs to me, that power and from the other. On the other hand, I’m sad that this power is divided from me; that it’s not connected with me, that it is disconnected from me. | |
| 37F | So there’s two feelings. One is that it’s mine, belongs to me. And on the other hand, it’s sad because it’s disconnected. So in which hand is it mine, and in which hand is sad? | |
| 38C | This feeling that it belongs to me and it’s mine is like rubber that connects me with this power, and it’s like from right side between me and this power. And this connection is one connection, and sadness is inside my chest, and I even have a stiffness in my chest and in my throat, and I would like to cry because of the sadness. | |
| 39F | So does that sadness in your chest have a size or a shape? | |
| 40C | Yes, it’s quite big, quite large. It fills all my lungs and it also fills all of my throat. It has a form like a bottle, and the bottle neck is in my throat. | |
| 41F | What kind of bottle is that bottle? | |
| 42C | It’s metal. It’s a metallic bottle. It’s like a silver colour, and it’s open. The bottle neck is not closed, it’s open. And now it’s getting interesting to me. Is there anything inside this bottle? Because it’s heavy and it’s interesting to me why it’s heavy. Is the metal heavy, or is there anything else inside that is heavy, inside this bottle? | |
| 43F | Is there anything inside? | |
| 44C | Yes, there is something. Because when I move, it’s begins to move inside sometimes like, like fluid. | |
| 45F | Like a fluid inside. Anything else about that fluid inside when you move? | |
| 46C | It’s getting funny, because when it doesn’t move, it’s like frightening, it’s scary. And when it moves, it, it becomes funny. | |
| 47F | It becomes funny. Anything else about this bottle and the fluid inside that depends whether it’s moving or not? | |
48C | Maybe I can try to pour out this fluid. Yes, and I have a feeling that if I will pour it out, it will be easier for me. It will become easier. I would feel better. | |
49F | And what’s happening now? | |
50C | Now I’m thinking that I would like to try to do it. | |
51F | And when you’d like to try to do it, what’s happening to that power that is yours, that’s connected to you with a rubber. What’s happening to that power? | |
52C | Now this power doesn’t grow anymore. Now it’s bigger than it was in the beginning, and this rubber is not rubber anymore. It’s more like two hands, and one hand is my hand and another hand is the hand of its power. And all the hands are together. | |
53F | Hands are together, your hand and the hand of the power. And then what happens? | |
54C | Now with this power, we are standing on one line like partners. And now I cannot look at her. I cannot see her, but I now feel her. Feel her presence, because now she’s not in front of me, she’s on one line, like beside me, on the right side. And I feel her. | |
55F | And when you feel her on the right side, then what happens? | |
56C | And now when this power is on the right side of me I can be more focused on the movement forward. I don’t need to look around anymore because I feel this power, and I can think more about my movement forward. | |
57F | And when you can think more about your movement forward, then what happens? | |
58C | I have one topic that is important for me now. It’s about calm movement, and movement in calmness. And now I feel I’m at a point when I’m ready to move, but I’m not moving yet. Yes, I’m ready for moment, but movement is not here yet. So I’m not moving yet, but I’m ready for movement. And yes, and for me, it’s like now, a very desired inner state. | |
59F | And when you’re at that point where you’re ready to move, where is that point? | |
60C | Now it’s no more anxiety, and more interest. And power is distributed inside me and outside of me in the space. And this state is like that. | |
61F | And so it’s a distributed power and a desire to move from that point. And so what happens just before you move from that point? | |
62C | I begin to move, and now that I’m not in the clouds anymore I see some road in front of me, some road. And now there is some road. | |
63F | And you begin to move, and what’s the first part of you that begins to move? | |
64C | My right foot. | |
65F | So the right foot begins to move. And then what happens? What’s the second thing that begins to move? | |
66C | And then I begin to move, following my right foot, and this very smooth movement, like all my body begins to follow. | |
67F | All your body begins to follow with a smooth movement, and in front of you is a road. And what kind of road is that road? | |
68C | This road is also in the forest. It’s not a winter forest in front of me now, it’s like autumn or spring. I see the brown trees with no leaves because it’s winter or it’s a spring or or autumn, and this road is in this forest. I don’t see it long. I don’t see like a horizon. I just see in front of me. But it’s okay. I know that there is this road in the forest. And no more clouds. Cloud have disappeared, | |
69F | And you’re moving towards that road in the forest. And as you move, what happens to that power? | |
70C | I don’t know how it’s possible, but this power is, at the same time, inside of me and also behind me on the right side. Like something bigger than me. | |
71F | And is there anything else? | |
72C | Yes, it’s an interesting feeling that behind my back there is something that doesn’t scare me, but supports me. It’s a new feeling for me. | |
73F | So there’s a new feeling behind you that supports you. And when there is that support behind you that’s a new feeling, what happens to writing to the person with whom you have collaborations, that shows your boundaries and that isn’t too tough? | |
74C | It seems to me that writing to his person is not so important anymore. And I don’t want to, I don’t want to use this feeling for this writing, even, because I would like to feel more of this feeling, to absorb this feeling more, that I have this support behind me. And would I be right to [write to] this person from this feeling or from another feeling is not so important now. Much more important now is that I would like to know more about this feeling. | |
75F | So take all the time we have … and we have just a few minutes left where we can put some attention on that feeling …So what kind of feeling is that feeling at your back? | |
76C | It’s like a feeling, or that I have something behind my back that gives me safety. And with this feeling of safety, I don’t need to look around anymore. I can be more focused on what is in front of me, | |
| 77F | It’s a feeling of safety at your back, and does that feeling of safety have a size or a shape? | |
| 78C | It has two parts. First part, it’s like something behind my back, something that is bigger than me, taller than me. And the second part inside of me, it’s like I feel a strange and pleasant feeling in my head, and the pleasure feeling that I’m becoming smaller and I have easy, pleasant breathing. My breath become easy. And I would like to have maybe more movement, but it’s okay for now. | |
| 79F | So take all the time you need to get to know more about that safety and that feeling inside and begin to wonder what happens next now you have that feeling behind and inside you … Are you ok if we stop here? | |
| 80C | Maybe I would like to have some anchor for being able to get into this state. Maybe something from what I was describing about this feeling could be a kind of anchor. | |
| 81F | Good idea. Can you do that? | |
| 82C | Now I am thinking maybe this sounds like a topic for a next session because for an anchor I [can] memorise pictures very good. At same time I would like to add more feeling and more movement in the bottom part of my body. In feet or legs and maybe I will try to do this. Like because all we were doing was about head, chest. And maybe not too much about bottom part, like legs. And maybe I would like to add something there. It’s kind of a next session. Now I have the technique I can do the steps with my right foot, as it was in this metaphor. | |
| 83F | Good. So practice using that right foot. | |
| 84C | Thank you. |
Debrief
James: [At the beginning of this webinar someone had asked about the difference between coaching and therapy with Symbolic Modelling]. That was an interesting session because the client’s original topic [writing to someone] could have been a coaching topic, but it turned into a much deeper exploration for the client.
I think it was clear that the client connected with a very important part of herself and so we took it slowly. The changes that happened in the client’s metaphor landscape, they are going to continue. This is deep work that will continue over the days and the weeks – and there’s more to come.
I wouldn’t call the the second half of that session ‘coaching’ because we were dealing, in my opinion, with very deep parts of the client and this had to be done very delicately and respectfully. And slowly, slowly it became more than coaching.
And another thing the [second half of the] session demonstrated is how we follow the logic of the client’s metaphors, even though we had little idea what was it was all about.
Penny: If anyone has a question about the process, you’re welcome to ask it.
Participant 1: I am intrigued with one of the parts of the session when there was a bottle inside the client, and the client said she was ready to pour this fluid out from the bottle [and that if she did it would become easier for her and she would feel better]. And my impression was that it was in a very resourceful place. The client seemed ready to do this, but you didn’t go this way. You didn’t ask the client to pour this this fluid out. I’m intrigued why you didn’t do this.
James: We never ask a client to do anything. I understand the client was ready to, but if the client wanted to pour it out, she could have [she didn’t need us to tell her to do that]. What happened next was the metaphor started to change spontaneously. The “power” was getting bigger, and there were “two hands”. And this was the first time the client had said the hands were together. All the times before the client would talk about ‘on one hand’ and ‘on the other hand’ – this and that. But now she is talking about hands together.
And that “power” was growing there and then in real time. And the client said that she could be more focused on the forward movement. If that’s what’s happening inside the client there and then, that’s more important than anything else. She can pour the liquid out of the bottle anytime she wants, but we wanted to work on what was happening for the client right then.
Penny: The [logic of the whole] metaphor landscape is the guide, not just any particular symbol.
James: And remember, we don’t know that the “fluid” wanted to be tipped out. Maybe it would be better for it to stay in the bottle. How do we know?
James [To participant 1]: So what do you think of this explanation?
Participant 1: I think that it’s a question of experience. Yes, the more experience you have with a method, the more you understand how to see all the picture, not only one detail that seems resourceful to you, but all the landscape. Yes, to be able to do this, you need practice.
James: Absolutely. And what we are calibrating for is what’s most significant for the client in that moment. We’re trying to determine what’s most significant for them and put attention on that. We are doing this all the time.
Participant 2: I have the question. It’s also about the fluid in the bottle. When there was a metaphor of this fluid in the bottle, there was an emotion of interest. And my impression was this emotion was kind of resourceful. And my question is, would it be possible to follow this direction, to begin to develop this topic of interest?
James: Sure. And who knows where it would go. So absolutely – and the session would probably have ended in a different place.
Penny: And it is likely that it would also have been useful.
James: As [participant 1] said, we’ve been doing this for 30 years, and so we have a sense of what is most important for the client in the bigger picture of their life. Remember, the client [started to] talk about writing a letter, which is a small piece of somebody’s life. And we could see this was an opportunity to work with a big piece of this person’s life. And that’s why we took that direction. But it would have been fine to work with the bottle and the fluid.
Penny: So one last question
Participant 3: I have no question, but I have some thoughts, some idea that I have after every practice, and that becomes more and more confirmed. That is, if we push the client and want to have fast results, we don’t know what price the client’s system would pay for this pushing and fast results.
James: Very true. And another thing that we have learned through 30 years is to trust the client’s metaphors. They know much, much more than we do. They know more about the client than we will ever know, and we trust them to guide us,
Penny: We always say, ‘trust the wisdom in the client system’. If you work systemically, with metaphors, with desired outcomes, and trust the wisdom in the client’s system – they will guide you!
Penny: We’ll say goodbye, and we’ll meet again next month,
James: And thank you to the client for volunteering
[Client report on the effect of the session to follow.]
