The following annotated transcript is our fifteenth published demonstration of Clean Language and Symbolic Modelling with a client from a group Ukrainian psychologists and psychotherapists. The group want to use Clean approaches to support themselves and their clients during the ongoing trauma of war. The sessions have evolved over the past three years into a mixture of training, supervision of client cases and live facilitation of participants.
The demonstration (including translation) lasted for 44 minutes. A short question and answer debrief follows the transcript.
Key:
C = Client, P = Penny Tompkins , J = James Lawley.
Facilitator introduced words are highlighted in bold to make it easier to see the format of our Clean Language questions.
The client’s responses and our questions were translated by Anna Stativka.
Transcripts of other demonstrations with this group are available at:
List of transcripts with Ukrainian therapists
The session
Row | Transcript |
|
1P | Are you ready to begin? [C: Yes] And what would you like to have happen? | |
2C | I would like to understand how the mechanism works when I act, when I act as somebody who create situations or circumstances, and not as somebody who just reacts. | |
3J | And what kind of mechanism is that mechanism, when you do create situations? | |
4C | Something happens, something is switched on and I go into creative mode. | |
5P | And something switched on, and you go into creative mode. What kind of switched on is that? | |
6C | It’s look like an old switch that I can do like with my hand, and it switches on an old switch. | |
7P | And when you have an old switch that you can do with your hand, is there anything else about that old switch? | |
8C | It’s black, and I feel this click when it switches on. I feel this click. | |
9P | And when you feel it, you feel a click when it switches on, and what happens just before you switch that click? | |
10C | My insight is that before I do this switched on, before this, I feel that there are enough resources. I have a good physical state. I have enough information. And when there’s enough of all of that, the switch switches on and all that can go forward. | |
11P | Ah, and so before you switch the switch, you feel there are enough resources. And when you feel there are enough resources, where do you feel there are enough resources? | |
12C | In my solar plexus | |
13P | In your solar plexus. And when you feel the resource in your solar plexus, whereabouts in your solar plexus, do you feel that? | |
14C | In the centre. | |
15P | And does that feel in the centre of your solar plexus have a size or a shape? | |
16C | Yes, it’s yellow, round and it’s light as the sun. | |
17P | And yellow and round and light as the sun, and when it’s yellow and round and it’s light as the sun, that’s like what? | |
18C | It’s like the source of warmth. | |
19P | Anything else about that source of warmth? | |
20C | Yeah, yes, it’s this warmth from this place, it goes, goes around all my body. And when it goes around all my body, this warmth, it switches on this mode of action. | |
21J | So it switches on the mode of action. And so how do you know when you feel it enough to switch on the mode of action? | |
22C | Uh huh. It’s a feeling when it’s not possible to stand or sit still, when I need to move. I need to do something because I don’t – I cannot be still anymore, and that’s the moment when this action mode becomes, begins. | |
23J | When you can’t sit still anymore and you have to move then what happens? | |
24C | What happens is the flow state. And the flow state is the state when anything from outside doesn’t disturb me, because I need to do things that have to happen in this flow state. | |
25J | And when you have to do those things in that flow state, when I have to do them, what kind of I is the I that does those things? | |
26C | Maybe it sounds kind of too pathetic, but I feel as I am powerful and I am a creator. | |
27J | Powerful and a creator, and so that’s what happens when you have enough resources and you can switch the switch with that hand. So what happens when you react to situations? | |
28C | Yes, I understand. I have insight about what is, what happens. What happens when I’m in a state, when I only react on events? Now I see that one of my drivers is to be in a hurry, hurry. Do everything as fast as you can. And when I am in this hurry state, it happens that I cannot switch on the switch for the creative state. So now I see that to be able to be in creative state, I need to be passive sometimes. And then I can gather, I can make [sure] my resources are enough. I like this creative state, it’s a is cool state. | |
29P | And when you need to be passive sometimes, what kind of passive? | |
30C | A passive style, state to observe, to feel, to react, and it looks like a flower that is about to bloom. | |
| 31P | And, and it looks like a flower. Anything else about that flower? | |
| 32C | It gathers the power to be in blossom for longer, for to be to be in blossom longer. | |
| 33P | It gathers power to be in blossom. And what kind of power is the power that it gathers? | |
| 34C | This power is a power of life, and it consists from different resources and from different informations, information that the flower lets go in. | |
| 35P | And it’s the power of life. And where is that power of life? Where is that power? | |
| 36C | This power is in my solar plexus. | |
| 37P | And is that in the same or different place in your solar plexus as the sun, the yellow round sun? | |
| 38C | It’s very interesting. Now this power of life, it looks like an indefinite space around this yellow round sun. | |
| 39J | An indefinite space. Anything else about that indefinite space? | |
| 40C | Yes, this space is endless. It’s dark, and you never know what can appear in this dark, endless space. | |
| 41J | So there’s a dark, endless space around a yellow, warm sun in your solar plexus. And is there anything else you need to be passive when in a situation? | |
| 42C | The first thought that comes to my mind is that I have to trust to this dark, endless space and it’s very – sometimes I would I want to control it, but I know that only through trust comes something good that then can be realised through my creative state. | |
| 43J | So what kind of trust is this trust that you need to trust that dark, endless space? | |
| 44C | This trust, it sounds to me – its calm and not try to push the situations or circumstance. | |
| 45J | And so when you trust like that, where is that trust? | |
| 46C | In my hands! | |
| 47J | In your hand. And does that have a size or a shape when it’s in your hands? | |
48C | [Laughs] Yes, it’s like warm gloves. And these are the gloves when the four fingers are together, like one together – mittens. And these mittens are necessary in order stop me from trying to do too much. [Laughs] | |
49J | So the mittens stop you from doing too much, and then you can trust that dark, endless space. | |
50C | Yes, it’s warm and cozy feeling in the mittens. | |
51J | Warm and cozy in the mittens and that stops you doing too much, and where is the want to do too much? | |
52C | It’s here, this, this want to do too much it’s here. | |
53J | Uh huh, and is that want to do too much the same or different as the driver to hurry? | |
54C | Yes, it’s the same. And this is like motor that is doing that. | |
55J | A motor. What kind of motor? | |
56C | It’s like perpetual motion. The thing that’s always working. It’s like, you know, a toy that can move with no stop. | |
57J | Okay, anything else about that toy that is always working? | |
58C | This toy is a metal toy, and it begins to move very rapidly, especially in the moments when I am passive, and when, in this moments it moves, it begin to destroy me from inside. | |
59P | So it begins to destroy you from inside, when it begins to move. And so where does its beginning to move come from? | |
.60C | It’s here, and I feel it as I must do something – I must. | |
61J | You feel as an I-must there. And so, where does that ‘must’ come from? The I-must, where does that come from? | |
62C | From my head. | |
63J | From your head, whereabouts from your head? | |
64C | [Points] Yeah. | |
65J | What happens there, where I-must comes from, what happens there? | |
66C | In these places, I know that it’s kind of a complicated construction, and it’s like the sound of voices. There are recordings of voices of people who told me in different times of my life that I need, that I must do something, and that to be passive is not a choice. It’s not good thing. You cannot be passive. | |
67J | And so those voices told you, you must do something. And so when those voices say you must do something, what would you like to have happen when they say that? | |
68C | I would like this sun in my solar plexus to be brighter, and I would like the sun to be the main source of information. | |
69J | The sun to be brighter and to be the main source of information. What needs to happen for that sun to be brighter when those recorded voices speak? | |
70C | I have to stop and understand where the sounds are coming from. And when I hear that these sounds are coming from my head, I need to focus my attention on my center in my solar plexus. And now I see that where my attention goes, there I will follow. I will follow my attention. So I need to stop and focus | |
71J | And focus on your centre. And so what needs to happen for you to stop when you hear those voices? | |
72C | I need to pay attention to this motor in my chest that begins to, to move this anxiety when this motor in my chest – so I need to stop and focus on from where the sounds are coming and what is going on. | |
73J | So what’s the first thing that lets you know that that motor is beginning to move? | |
74C | Desire to hurry. | |
75J | What kind of desire is that desire? | |
76C | This desire, it sounds like you cannot, you cannot stop. You cannot switch off the working process. You cannot stop. It’s like the sound. | |
| 77J | And so what would you like to have happen when there is that sound of that desire to hurry, what would you like to have happen? | |
| 78C | I would like to feel more trust and calmness instead of hurry hurry-ness. [Pause] And now I know that I have these mittens that are warm, and I know knowing about these mittens, now I would like to switch my attention into this warmth in this moment. | |
| 79J | And so is this the same trust or a different trust to the trust In the hands? | |
| 80C | Yes, it’s the same trust. | |
| 81J | The same trust. Now what you’d like is to switch your attention to the warmth. And when the recorded voices start and the motor in the chest begins and the warmth in the mittens, what’s happening to the dark, unending space around that sun? | |
| 82C | Then this dark and this place, it begins to have a sound of safe calmness. And then the sun begin to be bigger, and bigger and smaller, and bigger and smaller. And then I don’t try to push this process, and I just be in this process of natural rhythm. | |
| 83J | So what kind of sound is a sound of safe calmness? | |
| 84C | It is the sound when I’m not afraid that there is something that can sweeten me. | |
| 85J | So not afraid of something that can sweeten. So when you’re not afraid, what are you when you’re not afraid? | |
| 86C | When I’m not afraid, I am the creator who understands how she creates. | |
| 87J | So now, you know that you are the creator who understands how you create. And there’s the sound of the soft calmness that comes from the dark, unending space around a yellow sun that gets bigger and smaller and bigger and smaller … And you can put your attention on your centre … And feel the warmth of those mittens … and switch on that switch of your creative act … And is it okay if we stop now? | |
| 88C | And also I feel something else, that when I know everything that I know now, it gives me the opportunity to breathe freely. And don’t interrupt – and don’t push my breathing process [Laughs] | |
| 89P | Thank you very much. | |
| 90C | Thank you so much. |
Post-session debrief
Penny
Any questions or observations about the process?
Participant 1
Yes, I have an observation that when I work with Symbolic Modelling with my clients, sometimes it feels for me like we go round and round and round. And I sometimes think that maybe I do something wrong. But with this demonstration I have seen that you can also go round and round with clients. And now my conclusion from this demonstration is that it can be a good idea to go round and round, and every round to discover something new.
James
I’m glad that you’ve had the understanding that going round and round is not necessarily ‘wrong’. And you may think the session is going round and round, but the client may not. So let’s ask the client what she thought was happening in the session.
Client
My first impression was I wanted to run away, I wanted to hurry, because I had this idea that I understand already what is going on. And maybe we take a lot of time, too much time. But when we started to develop my metaphors in more detail, It helped me not only understand my system, how it works – that was my topic today – but also it helped me to learn about my be-hurry driver, because this was also working during this demonstration. So now I have a conclusion that it’s good idea to help the client to develop his landscape. And when you just develop a landscape, it can be more effective. It can be more useful, more helpful for the client.
James
I’d like to add that sometimes a client’s process will involve going round and round in circles, or maybe they are more of a spiral – and that’s okay. What we are calibrating for is – does the client appear to be getting something from this?
It seemed clear to us that the client was discovering new things about themself. They were having all sorts of sensations. They were coming to realisations. They were putting things together in new ways. As David Grove used to say “That’s as good as it gets”!
And we need to remember that it is only the conscious mind that thinks in straight lines from A to B. The unconscious is much more fluid and much more interconnected, it doesn’t have straight lines. We’ve learned to trust the client’s process even when it goes round and round, or up and down, or in and out. Sometimes it can seem like the client is in a maze and they have to go through lots of different places and doors. But we trust that their system knows what to do – if only in the next moment.
Penny
I’m reminded of something David Grove said, “Metaphor mediates the interface between conscious and unconscious process.”
Participant 2
I have a question just about that. If the metaphor is the interface between consciousness and unconsciousness, and sometimes a client can feel fear and be afraid of his own metaphors, and therapists also can be afraid to go too deep into metaphors, especially if the metaphors are connected with some painful things or some personal history of the client, the client can be afraid to touch it. If this is why a client jumps out the process, because of this fear to go deeper into metaphor, what can we do in this situation?
Penny
One thing is we endeavour, especially in a landscape like you’re describing, to help the client listen for their resource words, words like ‘trust’, words like ‘knowing’ and to develop these into resource metaphors, We do this because a resource metaphor will be embodied. And so if a client has a resource of ‘strength’ or ‘trust’ or ‘stability’ or a ‘core’ – whatever their resource is – it will be embodied and it will support them through their process.
This is why we want to know their desired outcome. If we can, we always want to develop a metaphor for the client’s desired outcome because it will be a resource that will support them to make the changes they need to make.
James
As you saw in the demonstration, we facilitated the client to develop some resources first before we went to the part that wanted to destroy her.
And if a client jumps out of their metaphors because they are afraid to touch something, you must respect that. And then ask them, what would they like to have happen? If you let the client be in charge of their own process they will determine how far or how deep they are prepared to go.
